S01E02 - Reinventing Yourself with Niels Bogerd

FH - Hello, Niels. How are you?

NB - Hey, Florian. I'm doing great. How are you doing?

FH - I'm I'm good. I can see it's sunny where you are.

NB - Yeah.

FH - That is really weird because I'm in the Netherlands and it's not really sunny here. So where are you?

NB - Yeah, I recently or a few months ago, I moved to Slovenia.

FH - Slovenia? Can you help me where it is?

NB - Yeah. So Slovenia is in the eastern part of Europe. It is just south from Austria and east from Italy. It is what they call the sunny side of the Alps.

FH - Right. Is that Austria? Grads, that area, and then a little bit south.

NB - Absolutely, yeah. But more west from Grads is already Slovenia.

FH - Okay. And then to the south, you would have Croatia.

NB - That's right, Croatia. So we have easy access to beautiful beaches in Croatia.

FH - You're making me jealous. You're making me jealousy. You're in the capital then. What's that again?

NB - Yeah, we live in Lubliana in Slovenia, in the capital here. This is really where everything is going on. And outside of the capital, there's really much less industry and business compared to the capital.

FH - Right. And the last time that we met was actually in Delft, or better said, de Hague. I always feel that Delft is more appropriate because we're sort of neighbors, right? We were neighbors. We lived in the same street and we were also neighbors at work because we had officers right next to each other, which was really funny. That's where we met. And at that time, you were still working for a company called SenseGlove, if I remember correctly. Can you tell a little bit about what SenseGlove is and what your current involvement is with that company?

NB - Yes, yeah, absolutely. SenseGlove is a scale up at the moment. When I joined, this was about five years ago, SenseGlove was a startup and they were founded just a year earlier. And I invested in SenseGlove and you could say I did a management buy in. So I also became responsible for the operations of the company. And what SenseGlove is doing is they are creating a glove that you can wear in your hands. And with that glove, you can have real interactions with virtual objects. So just imagine that you are in VR. You're wearing a VR headset. You can see all kinds of really cool things, but usually you have controllers in your hands, sort of joysticks with buttons. And if you want to pick up something, then you don't grab it with your hand and you cannot feel it, but you press a button and then all of a sudden it is in your virtual hand. And with the SenseGlove, we make this really intuitive and natural. So if you want to grab an object like a cup or maybe a drill in the virtual environment. You do that in the same way as you do that in real life. And what really is amazing about the senseGlove is we can also provide a force and haptic feedback. So if you hold on to this virtual object, you can actually feel that you're holding onto it in your hand through the force feedback and also the vibration that we can give to your real hand and fingers.

FH - And then the first application, I think about gaming, but I'm wrong. There probably now yeah.

NB - The gaming industry is not so large. If you look at virtual reality and what we have seen is there's much more interest in you could call it serious gaming. So there are a lot of large companies that are very interested in using virtual reality because they can save quite a lot of money on having physical assets. It is often much cheaper if they can have those assets virtually. So think about, for instance, anything expensive, like a car. If you want to train people to assemble a car, it's expensive to have the real car. It's much cheaper to have a virtual car. You can train many more people at the same time. It doesn't matter if they make mistakes. They cannot damage anything. Or think of an engine, of an airplane. People have to be trained to maintain the engine. For instance, very expensive to have an engine just sitting around waiting for someone to do training. It's much cheaper to have the same engine in virtual reality.

FH - Yeah. Especially if that assembling an engine. If it goes wrong, it damages the engine. Then the cost of the engine are like thousands of I can see that your current involvement with the company is.

NB - Yeah, currently I resigned from my position as the responsible for the operations. And now my involvement is just as an investor or shareholder. And basically that is because, as I indicated, we recently moved to Slovenia. And this is because my wife is from Slovenia and she really was missing Slovenia quite a lot. And I always thought that she would get used to it. We would spend just about every vacation in Slovenia. But this homesickness that she had didn't go away. So at some point I realized that there's no other way than to move to Slovenia. And of course, I cannot say that I was finished at Tens Cloth, but it felt as if I could leave my task up to other people. And so I felt free to move to Slovenia.

FH - Yeah. It's always hard to define the word finished. When are you finished with it, right, that's true. So on the podcast, I'd like to invite people who are taking a leap, starting on a new project and knowing your story that you actually moved countries not just to Belgium or Germany, but all the way to Slovenia. Different language. You quit your work at Sansklov, moving in a new direction. I thought okay. If someone's taking a leap, I need to talk to Noodles. Right, let's make that leap together. What are you working on at the moment? What's your big project, or project, I guess.

NB - Yeah. This is one of the great things of moving to a different area where everything is new and no one knows me yet is that you can really define yourself. You can position yourself differently as how it was in the Netherlands. And what I'm doing currently, I am establishing myself as an investor and a coach. And what I've learned is I really like this balance of investing in a company, and at the same time so I'm really focusing on tech startups, and I like to invest in really the early stage. And in this early stage, I try to advise or I am coaching the startups in such a way that I can maximize the success of the startups. And this combination, I really like.

FH - I love how you've rephrased that. It's not that you say, hey, I'm going in a new environment. I know nobody there.

FH - Help. It's more like, hey, I'm going to a new environment. Awesome. I can reinvent myself, I can reposition myself, but nobody knows me here. As Nielse, who was in the past, I can break with the past and move on to the future. Is that a correct assessment? Did you really know people? Did you have a network or how did that go?

NB - No, in this field, I really didn't know anyone before I moved to Slovenia. Well, I have to be honest, what I did before the move, I already started to network. And through this networking, I got in contact with really wonderful people in Slovenia. And I was very pleasantly surprised because I realized that the startup scene is quite developed in Slovenia. You cannot compare it with Holland, but it is on a level that is serious and on a level that you can yeah, how can I say this?

FH - Yeah.

NB - It's on a level that is sufficiently professional that you can do good business here.

FH - Right. And what advice would you have for people who claim that I don't know anyone?

NB - Yeah. I think what is really important is that you approach people. And what was really important for me is the networking aspect. So if you go to a new country, what I did, what was really crucial for me, is to get in contact with people. For me, LinkedIn was really a great tool. I just started to approach people that I didn't know, but I saw were very influential in the startup scene. And often I reached out to these people. I asked if I could perhaps have a ten or 15 minutes call with them just to get a little bit of information. Are there special events where I have to be? Are there special groups that I should be involved in? And often these people were very happy to help me, and I have to say, slovenia is of course a small country and the startup scene is not so much developed as in the Netherlands. So it also really helped that I came from Holland and that I had the experience that I had with SenseGlove and other companies. So the people that I was reaching out to were, I think, directly also seeing the added value that I could bring to the scene, the startup scene in Slovenia, or perhaps to them personally, right?

FH - It's a matter of just reaching out, believing in yourself. But you also have to bring something to the table.

NB - Yeah.

FH - And now you're working there as an investor, as a coach. Let's focus on the latter first, the coaching, how does it work? Let's say you want to start coaching startups or companies. Do you just go to the grocery store and say, hey, can I coach you? Or how does that go?

NB - Well, I started coaching already in Holland because if you have the ambition to invest in startups, then it is very nice if you can take a look under the hood, right? And if you're a coach, if you are a coach, then you can really see how the company is doing. So it's actually you're spying a little bit on the company and this helps you with this insider information to make a really good assessment if this is a company that you would like to invest in. So once I realized this, I started coaching. And then it was so interesting. I actually realized that I have really a lot of knowledge that is really valuable to early stage startups. And this was really great. So I really love the energy that these people of startups have and they really appreciated the advice that I could give. And I think really important is I'm not really theoretical. So there are a lot of books with beautiful flow charts and approach plans and all these kind of things. I have my knowledge from practical experience and I've also validated it. So I think that is also very valuable advice that you can give. And also a lot of the startups appreciated this very much. So I started in Holland and then I continued here in Slovenia through investments that I did in companies. But here in Slovenia, the government has organized a startup program and local startups can apply to this program. And once they are accepted, they get a little bit of funding, which is really awesome. They get a little bit of funding and they also have access to coaches and mentors like me, people with experience. And in that way, I was also invited to a few different events. And in that way, people got to know me and asked me if I could be their mentor or coach.

FH - Right? So you have to put yourself out there, get in touch with the right people, join the programs that are already there. And then one thing leads to another and as long as you bring value to the table, you will get in touch with the right people.

NB - And I guess yeah, I think, Florian, what is really interesting I moved here. It's not that I had an extremely clear plan of what I was going to do because I didn't know Slovenia really well, so I had to find the match. And this was really interesting. So I've already learned from the coaching that I did in the Netherlands that I can really bring valuable advice and knowledge to early stage startups. Then it was really interesting because these Slovenian people, they saw this Dutch guy coming to Slovenia, which doesn't happen really often, people with my sort of skill set and experience. So they started to invite me if I want to give a presentation or if I want to give a workshop. And I still remember the first presentation that I gave. I never gave a presentation on the operations, on scaling and the operations of an early stage starting. I was actually really nervous and I didn't know what kind of audience there was. I was really stumbling through the first minutes of my presentation. But then also there I realized, wow, I could even bring more added value here in Slovenia because also, the whole startup scene, it's not bad organized, but it is not as well organized as it is in the Netherlands. So in that way, I sort of naturally came to this I sort of naturally came to this role that I'm now playing here and trying to establish myself more stronger in the ecosystem.

FH - This reminds me a bit of the book that Seth Godin wrote, I think, 15 years ago, the Purple Cow, where if every cow is black and white or brown, not special, but if a purple cow enters the field, we were like, wow, this is something we've never seen before. And you're so the purple cow to get the Dutch guy coming into the Slovenian ecosystem all of a sudden with a different skill set, because I think that every ecosystem eventually comes to a standstill if there's no new influx of change. It seems that you're bringing that that's very valuable for an ecosystem and for startups.

NB - Yeah, I think you're right. And I'm now here for about six months, and what I see is that this coaching goes in phases, in certain periods, and after period ends, the startups can choose also another mentor or coach. And what I see is that they come back to me. So now, all of a sudden, I have quite a lot of startups that I can coach. I can hardly accept more than I'm doing at the moment.

FH - Right.

NB - So I also see that the way that I sort of position myself is validated and is also appreciated not only by these startups, but also by other networks that we have here in Slovenia.

FH - There's a little bit of surprising voicemail. They come back to me do I detect that correctly?

NB - No. It's not that I was really doubting on myself, but it is also interesting because if you are coaching startups, there's also a little bit of a difference between my mentality or the mentality that we would have in the Netherlands and the mentality that startup founders have here in Slovenia. And so it's always the question, can they appreciate this or am I perhaps too direct? Is the approach that I have really compatible? Because you were making this example of the purple cow. Maybe no one likes the color of purple and thinks it's disgusting and wants to get rid of this purple cow, but apparently they don't mind and they perhaps do the color of purple among the normal cows.

FH - Yeah, I've coached people before, and companies too. And my experience was that at the end of the session, I was like, this was a session, but I have no idea what. I actually had a lot of value, and then later I got the feedback like, oh man, this was really good, and I really got a lot out of it. I'm really happy to hear that. And I hoped that, but I didn't know. So that's what my personal experience. So we talked a little bit about coaching. We talked a little about the investments that you're doing, not too much yet, using the coaching more to look under the hood. And if you like what you see, then that's when you make an investment offer. I guess what I found really interesting in your story is that you said that you didn't come to Slovenia with a fixed plan. I can imagine that you came with Slovenia with a sort of a dream or an aspiration or a dot on the horizon or something that you say, okay, this is where I see myself in the future. Is that a correct assessment?

NB - Well, if I'm really completely honest, please be more interesting. No, I was really open and didn't have a fixed plan of how I was going to develop my professional career here in Slovenia. So my main motivation of moving to Slovenia was, as I indicated, my wife, she really had this huge wish of going back to Slovenia. And that is why I said, okay, now is for me also the time that I can leave Holland, but let's go. I also have two kids, so for me, it's very important that I also help them to transition in the most optimal way to adapt to Slovenia. And so I thought, let's take the first year of being in Slovenia, just to get to know Slovenia, to explore what the possibilities are for me, how I can, the most effective way and meaningful way also spend my time here in Slovenia. And of course, I also have to create some income, I have to say. So initially I thought, let's take one year. I'm not going to do well. I should not feel obliged to do a lot of work, but it's now half a year after we moved and I am already, since the third month or something, I'm almost working full time. And that is also including the language course that I'm doing, because the language is quite difficult, but it went much faster than I actually had thought. So what I can conclude from this is I moved to Slovenia without a really fixed plan, but for some reason I found my way quite efficiently and I'm now positioned myself in a way that allows me to really use my time in an efficient and meaningful manner.

FH - Sounds like the saying that you overestimate what you can do on the short term and you underestimate what you can do long term. That's sort of what applies here because you say, okay, in a year I want to be sort of have an idea or maybe and in three months you already had it, but within a week you're like, oh man, time flies. Where did my week go?

NB - That is what happened. Yeah.

FH - Okay, so you're working as coach, you're working as an investor for folks who are listening to this. How can they help you on your on your journey? What are you looking for? Who do you want to connect to? This is your opportunity to reach out to my large audience too.

NB - Yeah, I really appreciate this. I think what I also indicated in the beginning, there's such an immense power in networking and I'm also as a coach, I'm trying to connect people with each other. So I'm really interested in getting in touch with people that have an interest in Slovenia, especially, of course, in the business aspects of Slovenia. For instance, people that are interested in maybe exploring if they can do investments here in Slovenia or what they call not only Slovenia but the Central and Eastern Europe area. So I'm really interested in getting in contact with those people. And also, though, other businesses that are perhaps looking for a subcontractor in Slovenia or people that are interested in Slovenia or in this region to get involved in the startup scene. So maybe very to make it really concrete, I have one one of my portfolio companies is at the moment looking for a chief technical officer and we can even offer this person a late founder's position for title.

FH - What are the qualifications that you're looking for? Is this a hardware company? A software company?

NB - Yeah, this is a software company. So they make an app for charity organizations. And so in this case, we're really looking for someone doesn't have to be extremely experienced, can be someone quite fresh from the university, preferably with some entrepreneurial experience and of course with the ambition and also sort of with the ambition of growing into a CTO of a software company.

FH - Okay, and you mentioned that you're already coaching many companies. Are you looking for other coaching opportunities as well or are you closed for business in that area?

NB - No, I'm never closed for business in this area. But I see that I have to be a little bit picky on this. So I really want to make sure that I really have a strong feeling that I can have a huge impact on the company or an optimal impact on the company. So I will not just accept every company for coaching.

FH - Right. And I guess that works both ways, because if there's not a good fit, then we shouldn't force force coaching. Okay, wonderful. I will put all the contact information for you that you want to share and your call to action for coaching, the CTO position, investment opportunity. I will put it in the show notes, and that's how people can contact you if they want to reach out. Um, yield. It was a pleasure interviewing you, and I had a lot of fun. I hope you had a lot of fun too, and thank you.

NB - Yeah, great. Thank you very much for this opportunity, Florian. I really enjoyed it. Always like to speak with you, and good luck with everything. Thank you.